Commons:Deletion requests/File:Personalised St. Valentine's Day message, Rotterdam-Centrum, Rotterdam (2021) 01.jpg

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File:Personalised St. Valentine's Day message, Rotterdam-Centrum, Rotterdam (2021) 01.jpg[edit]

Part of series of 100+ posters with very specific types of text, which are still under copyright Mdd (talk) 16:41, 7 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Also

-- Mdd (talk) 16:55, 7 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Further comment (1)[edit]

The logo of the Erasmus University Rotterdam looks almost identical to the design of Loesje posters.

 Addendum, for context, I've asked other users and administrators before for what is and isn't a copyrightable standard for posters (see here as an example), and the TOO doesn't seem to be as low as the nominator proposes, for example see "File:2010 election posters doetinchem.JPG" which was kept twice. The VVD's election posters are way more creative than Loesje, yet multiple administrators over the years have found them to be below the TOO. --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 12:51, 9 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Update and request for permission[edit]

These works were part of a temporary street-art project in Rotterdam, see here initiated by Mothership. Now I contacted its director and asked for their opinion and if they would give us permission to keep sharing those works here. -- Mdd (talk) 18:19, 7 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Yesterday I received a postive response of Mothership, that they are interested and prepared to cooperate. However, I did have my doubts about the possibilities here. And today just now I noticed I might have misread the origin of ths project in the first place. Every postern has the following text on the bottum:
Rotterdam. Make it happen. Dit project is mede mogelijk gemaakt Cultuur Concreet, Stichting de Loodsen, Hippr, notdef.org, Platform P., Rotterdam Festivals. Kooyman, Centercom.
There is a listing of eight producers of the project, of which the Rotterdam Festivals is the most prominent. The doubts I had yesterday was regarding the origin of the quotes on the posters. They don't seem to originate from one text writer, but seem to be personal notes/quotes of unique individuals. So here is probably a project with over 100 participants and 8 producers. It is practically impossible to get the approval for all of these works, or even for one. This is a dead end but there might be an other way. -- Mdd (talk) 11:06, 9 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That's obvious, every poster is addressed to someone, then the message is written down, and then the writer is listed. The vast majority of these messages are too short and too banal to be eligible for copyright ©️ protection, for example "File:Personalised St. Valentine's Day message, Rotterdam-Centrum, Rotterdam (2021) 02.jpg" only reads "I love you and I stay loyal to you", that is isn't anywhere near creative enough to warrant copyright ©️ protection under Dutch law. Only a handful of them at most contain messages that might be eligible for copyright ©️, but I would refer to the "Backseat conversations" (De Endstra-tapes) where phrases like “she has a black belt in shopping, so uh …” weren't seen as creative enough to warrant the creation of copyright ©️, and these conversations are quite long. For a phrase to be copyrightable under Dutch law it has to be creative and original enough to warrant this protection. These works are below the "COM:TOO" for the Netherlands. Another random example, "File:Personalised St. Valentine's Day message, Rotterdam-Centrum, Rotterdam (2021) 64.jpg" is literally just an old proverb, in one (1) case the entire message is just the letter "X", are you telling me that just the letter X is copyrighted? --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 11:13, 9 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Donald Trung are aware that for 90% you are not addressing this issue, but repeat the copyright argumentation you gave in the previous discussion-section. This concerns these parts. In this DR debate I especially made a fork to focus on this specific point of requesting permission. I will respond to those copyright concerns in the first section later. Now you hardly addressed this specific topic. Just the words "That's obvious..."...!? -- Mdd (talk) 11:45, 9 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Further comment (2)[edit]

Short or long, I think that does not matter. This is about creativity and the maker of a creative work has copyrights on that work. I saw some of these works and I think they are creative works, as are Loesje posters: the (short) sentences are new, show a different view on things, required creativity. If there are VRT tickets (as for some of the Loesjes posters) then they can stay, otherwise I think they should be deleted. --JopkeB (talk) 16:11, 9 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Would you say that all these works are creative works by default? Regardless if they're generic sentences (like those I listed above)? Not all these sentences are new and many just contain generic messages with no additional creative input. --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 23:06, 9 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Having a "view" on things is not the same as creating a copyrightable work of authorship. Ideas are not copyrightable; expression can be.
All the "works" by Loesje are short phrases/slogans.
  • In the United States, the Copyright Office says, "Copyright does not protect names, titles, slogans, or short phrases."
  • In the Netherlands, the government says that works must be "original and personal" and "[not] similar to works of others." In line with CJEU decisions, the work must be an "intellectual creation of the author." A single-sentence slogan or phrase will not be copyrightable in the Netherlands either.
The fact that Loesje members may claim that catchphrases and slogans are copyrightable does not make it so. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 00:40, 10 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I am not a lawyer, nor a specialist in copyright law. So I cannot answer these questions and remarks. Above I expressed my view, based on my interpretation of the Auteurswet, which states that "ieder voortbrengsel op het gebied van letterkunde, wetenschap of kunst, op welke wijze of in welken vorm het ook tot uitdrukking zij gebracht" can be subject of copyright. I think an administrator (or even better: a specialist in copyright law of the Netherlands) should be the judge whether these posters are protected by copyright or not. JopkeB (talk) 02:11, 10 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

One solution: One sample kept (117) and request to relocate the rest[edit]

From this particular series I have kept one (as deminimis) and updated the documentation, see here. Furthermore I would appreciate if Donald Trung would relocate the rest to his own Flickr account of similar. These series as a whole has certain artistic and encyclopedic value (and could be restored in 2091). -- Mdd (talk) 20:09, 9 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

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